It's been a long couple of weeks.

[fancycwabs]

(Confidants filter: If you're seeing this, you've got some experience dealing with grown-up situations, and there's a good chance you're married, have been married, or might soon become married, although exceptions exist. In any case, I value your opinions and your discretion.)

Last night at Guys & Dolls rehearsal, the director and the music director got into a fight which ended with the music director walking out on rehearsal. As the director is Mrs. Cwabs, and the music director is my closest IRL friend, it's not particularly fun to watch them get into a pissing contest over something as stupid as a musical cutoff. Afterwards, Mrs. Cwabs went out drinking until 3am. Again. She doesn't quite fathom why her drinking with her single buddies until 2 or 3 once a week (or so) might put a strain on our relationship. "I'm not a five-year-old that needs to have a curfew!" she's fond of saying, "I should be able to spend time with my friends!" Sadly, this is how we communicate.

We've never gotten to the reasons that she'd rather spend time with them than with me, although they're pretty apparent. The people she's spending time with are all single, and their responsibilities run largely paycheck to paycheck. They never bother her with worrying about car repairs, or laundry, or mowing the yard, or shopping for groceries, or paying the bills. If they lose their job waiting tables or answering phones, there's another one next door just like it. Since none of them have kids, there's not college or report cards or discipline to worry with, either. These are all negative things that are part of the life she shares with me, and she can escape all those things when she's with them. Does she want to be rid of those things permanently, and return to the bohemian carefree lifestyle of her friends? Part of her does, I'm sure. Is she going through a midlife crisis? Signs point to yes. Will our relationship survive? I haven't got a fucking clue--in the meantime, I'm trying to be patient.

I'm hardly blameless, either--my escapes tend to be made online, though, so I'm largely available for discussion or conversation if I'm needed in the real world.

Generally speaking, I've been dealt a pretty good hand in life. I have a good job that affords me time and means to pursue whatever outside activities I want, a mostly-stable home life, and a very small modicum of talent with which to be creative in lots of different areas. In reality, this is a minor difficulty, but sooner or later we're going to have to resolve it.

Comments

[snowy-owlet.livejournal.com]

I think everyone would like to abdicate the responsibilities of adult live now and again ("now" sometimes stretching to long periods of time).

Trying to be patient is good.

How worried/hurt are you? Enough that you're willing to say to her, "This hurts me. Please listen."?

[fancycwabs.livejournal.com]

I agree that we all need our escapes now and again--and Mrs. Cwabs never exactly experienced a true single life as she went from the middle of college to a crappy marriage to another (hopefully less crappy) marriage, so she make be making up for lost time in other ways, as well, whereas I didn't get married until I hit 30 (although frankly I didn't make the best use of my unencumbered years).

"This hurts me," was my strategy the last time this happened, and got a tirade about what a lousy husband and father I was in response, and how she was a GROWN ADULT and could go out like GROWN ADULTS do, and how she was scared of me because I get upset that she stays out without communicating.

I don't feel like I'm an ogre for expecting my wife come home at night, and for worrying about her when she says she's going out for a bite and not coming home until four hours later, but perhaps I am. I certainly have it in my nature to be possessive, petty, and paranoid. At the same time, she doesn't really see my side of the argument. "If you stayed out until three without me, I wouldn't care," is a statement which has never been tested--and likely never will be as that's not my nature.

[snowy-owlet.livejournal.com]

Not to sound mean or anything, but "grown adults" don't go hanging out with their friends until 3:00 am. That's what Young Somethings do.

So I agree that you're not being an ogre.

[skatiemom.livejournal.com]

I was just about to say the same thing as Owlet's second comment. I can completely relate to wanting to hang out with friends, and can see where she might feel she missed out. But. She IS a grown-up. It's time to behave like one. Not telling you where she really going or when she'll really be home is flat out rude. Isn't there still a daughter at home?

GROWN ADULTS are considerate of their significant other's feelings. GROWN ADULTS don't pull adolescent bullshit by disappearing for hours without a word. GROWN ADULTS face up to their responsibilities even when it sucks ass and they'd rather go pretend to be a youngster again. (Sorry about the rantlet there, but I'm leaving it in because I really feel this to be true.)

Why on earth did she feel scared of you? Were you loud or violent? You don't seem scary online.

[fancycwabs.livejournal.com]

While I have it in me to be loud, as I have a big voice, I tend to probably be more psychologically demeaning and cruel when I feel wounded. Not that that's necessarily any better.

As a rule, I try to get all the shoutiness and mean (if occasionally true) things out of me while alone in the car or in an internal monologue, and stay (mostly) cool on the outside. I've never thrown a punch (or an object) in anger (although we've sparred with one another in Taekwondo class, so I can't claim to have never hit my wife or kids). Arguments have gotten to the raised-voice stage occasionally in six years--although I'm going to say I'm not responsible for the escalation in tone, that might not be true.

So it may be that my cruel words are damaging to someone who's already emotionally scarred, or it may be that she says she's scared of me because she knows that comparing me to a spouse-abuser is a quick way to get me to back off completely, given my antipathy towards her ex-husband (who was by most commonly applied measures abusive (not to mention a DSM-IV antisocial personality--the artist formerly known as "sociopath")).

How much of a midlife crisis is one entitled to? Between Mrs. Cwabs and the aforementioned musical director, I'm dealing with a pretty good percentage of people wishing they could have a do-over.

[skatiemom.livejournal.com]

Is a midlife crisis something we're really entitled to have? That's probably a rhetorical question. :)

IMO, Mrs. Cwabs is being unfair. Maybe you should actually try staying out late, or simply disappearing for a few hours, and see how she really reacts. A friend of mine did that to her husband a few times, and it made him much better about keeping in touch. He'd also told her he wouldn't care if she did it. Turned out he cared. Huh.

I'd probably tell both her and your friend that you understand they wish they could have a do-over. Maybe ask if there's ways to help them through this time without making yourself crazy. Then throw a drink in each face and stomp out.

Okay, don't do the last bit. I would try getting stuff out in the open.

[skatiemom.livejournal.com]

BTW, I hope I'm not coming off as a meaniepants. I've watched one of Mr. Skatie's brothers go through his second adolescence the last few years. He's currently living with a son, hanging out in bars, and racing motorcycles in his copious spare time. I'm definitely jaded.

[snowy-owlet.livejournal.com]

I don't think one is "entitled" to much in life, frankly, and my experience has been that people who convince themselves they're "entitled" set themselves on a path that leads to jackassery.

I agree with Skatie: in my opinion, her attitude and behavior are unfair.

I don't know whether my ex would qualify as a sociopath, but he was abusive. Those of us who have been kicked around (and let's be honest, abuse or not, that's 99.9% of us) have a choice to make: we can carry that around our whole lives or we can heal. There comes a point at which you have to lay that burden down. And that process might involve some late nights out getting sloppy drunk and crying in your cosmo: but that phase is supposed so END. When you have safety, love, and support in front of you, it's time to let the past be.

I rarely think that manipulation is a wise choice, but if she won't listen, maybe it is time to take a few nights to stay out too late and out of touch. But if she's not being sensible, can you count on that not backfiring?

Maybe therapy would be better. I know people think of couples therapy as a last resort, but therapy works a LOT better (and more quickly) if you go before things get desperate.

[fancycwabs.livejournal.com]

I mentioned the possibility of professional help during previous conversations with her. She says that we (or she, more precisely) already know everything that a therapist would say, and we're already doing it.

I'm generally disinclined towards the "taste of her own medicine" approach, in that doing something that I'm normally not likely to do in order to hurt somebody else seems spiteful. It may come to that, however.

The "sociopath" definition came off of the DSM-IV checklist:
1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others
6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain steady work or honor financial obligations
7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

If you get three or more, you're a grown-up, and you're not schizophrenic, congratulations! You're a sociopath!

[snowy-owlet.livejournal.com]

Well, hey. I guess El Bedbug Loco could be a sociopath, given 2, 3, 4, and 7, with occasional bouts of 5.

Regardless: yes. Spite isn't good for anyone. However, I think Ms. Cwabs is wrong about therapy. One can never know everything.

I wish I had more practical advice for you.

[fancycwabs.livejournal.com]

Simply being told that I'm not going overboard, by folks whom I trust to tell me if I am going overboard, is ample assistance. Besides, sympathetic ears are harder to come by than advice--you can get advice from a book.

[box-of-rocks.livejournal.com]

I agree that the "taste of her own medicine" idea might not be a good one. First of all, it could backfire in a big way and she could then use this as ammo "I let you go out until 3 am and I didn't care!" And then what could you say to that? "I actually didn't want to stay out; I was just trying to piss you off."?

I know that I have a tendency to be contrary sometimes, and it sounds like your wife might be like that too - the more you make your disapproval known, the more she wants to engage in those behaviors to show that she's her own person, or whatever.

I'm sorry; I have no real advice. I think Skatie might have some good ideas: "I'd probably tell both her and your friend that you understand they wish they could have a do-over. Maybe ask if there's ways to help them through this time without making yourself crazy." I think it's much better to have an understanding approach than a spiteful one.

[garoux.livejournal.com]

Umm...yeah. I was actually in the same situation, but reversed. I was the one that was heading out later than usual, and not really saying anything about it. She used to get really pissed about it, and we argued for hours on end. She finally just flipped it around, and asked me what I would think if she was staying out all hours of the night without letting me know what's going on or where she is. Put in that perspective, I understood. Even though I still go to several places with my friends, I at least give her some sort of heads-up, so that she's not sitting there getting worried.

I understand that she wants to escape her life sometimes, and that's fine. But how about if you headed out the same way? How would she feel?

[fancycwabs.livejournal.com]

She claims that she'd be fine with it, although it's never been put to the test.

[crankyliberal.livejournal.com]

On one hand, I can't see anything wrong with Mrs. Cwabs having a night out once a week, even a late one. If I had more friends out here in AZ, I would probably go hang out with them without Stenny every so often- in fact I have gone out with coworkers at the last minute (although I think the latest I ever came home from that was 9pm).

However, I call Stenny (with cell phones I have no excuse not to) and let him know what's up. Even if I don't have an exact coming home time, I try to at least estimate. And yeah, I've been the lame girl who goes home earlier than other people because, unlike other people, I have someone waiting for me at home.

So, I see the need for space, and I've had a couple conversations with Stenny about Please Don't Freak Out if I Don't Call You All the Time. But I think giving your spouse some heads up is required as decency.

Also, using her past abuse as a tool against you is bad bad juju that I have little sympathy for. I was raised in an abusive household and I still have triggers, but that doesn't mean I Get A Free Pass out of Discussing Issues all the time.

I hope things work out for you. I realize this comment is all about me, but I had to apply the situation to myself to figure out what I thought. I agree with others that you're getting the short end of the stick.

[dimloep-suum.livejournal.com]

Well, all the reasonable people have given advice and such, so all I really have is...

*hugs*

I hope everything works out for, if not the Best, at least for the Whole Lot Better.

[nobeautyqueene.livejournal.com]

I hope things work out too. I'm sorry to hear you're struggling.

Mrs. Cwabs is fighting dirty, I think. She has these trump cards and she lays them down when she doesn't want to face that she's being totally childish.

There's nothing inherently wrong with staying out and having fun with friends, but the not calling is just fucking ridiculous. It's not a matter of being checked up on, it's just common courtesy.

I strongly suggest trying to reach a compromise like Fang suggested, where each of you gets a designated night out per week (or whatever time period). Then when it's your turn, DO leave the house. Even if you don't go do anything, just get out of the house. Give her space inside the house, and give yourself a little fresh perspective at the same time.

Is there anything you can do to make your home environment more pleasant, as in, things that you could physically change about your home? Is there anything you can do personally to make her want to come home to you? Things like making sure you have conversations that DON'T include kids, bills, responsibilities, etc., spending time together in the same room, working together on a fun project, that kind of thing...